From morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us Sun Aug 20 23:18:36 CDT 1995 Article: 111886 of alt.folklore.computers Xref: uchinews alt.folklore.computers:111886 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: uchinews!gw2.att.com!pacbell.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!grian!morris From: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Mike Morris) Subject: Re: Why 50 vs 60 Hz ? (Loooooong reply/followup w/ info) Message-ID: <1995Aug20.053902.18101@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> Organization: College Park Software, Altadena, CA References: <40h3v0$55j@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <40l3ui$ok8@barnacle.iol.ie> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 05:39:02 GMT Lines: 184 Status: R Nick Spalding writes: >aax@ix.netcom.com (ANDREW GRYGUS) wrote: >> >> In wautelet@innet.be (Thierry >> Wautelet) writes: >> > >> >Not sure it's the right place to post but there are so many people >> >around with historical knowledge ... >> > >> >I would like to know why in Europe (and other part off the world) >> >we are using 50 Hz AC and in other 60 Hz. >> > >> >There should some historical reason ? >> > >> Originally it was all 50Hz (or 50 cycles, as it would have been >> stated then), a nice round number. But then the grid got over- >> loaded in the U.S. and the, then young, utility companies were faced >> with a great expense for all new transmission equipment. However, >> a way was found. A given transformer can handle more VAs at higher >> frequencies (within limits), so the utilities jumped the frequency >> to 60 cycles and saved big bucks - and the public had to buy all >> new clocks (AC electric clocks are controled by the accuracy of the >> frequency provided by the utility, which is adjusted daily to keep >> clocks on time). This same logic is why aircraft use 400 Hz. By >> using a high frequency they can pump plenty of VAs through relatively >> light transformers. A similar phenomenon: musicians oficially >> started at 400 cycles/sec., but kept cheating a little to for a >> "briliant sound" until the standard drifted up to A=440 cycles. >> >Around what year did this change take place? I have seen a 50 cycle >clock on a mantlepiece in Pasadena which did not look that very old! >And as far as I am concerned cycles - which actually describe what is >going on - are preferable to Hz which are meaningless! I would love to have a 50hz clock. As a sidelight, if memory serves me correctly, E.E. "Doc" Smith, in one of his sicence fiction stories in the late 1950s/early 1960s (the "Venus Equilateral" series?), used 25 cycle power in Boston as a problem generator, where the lower frequency causes malfunctioning of a matter transmitter system. This story was my first exposure that 60hz power wasn't the standard everywhere... As I understand it, 60 hz is in use due strictly to politics. 50 would be much nicer to work with (timekeeping interrupts in embedded processors could be at 20ms- 50 interrupts to the second - rather than at 16.666666... ms, etc). Reaching over to my bookshelf.... I have a copy of "Iron Men and Copper Wires", by William A. Meyers, subtitled "A Centennial History Of The Southern California Edison Company",ISBN 0-97046-068-4. For our non-Southern California readers, who wouldn't know the environment, SCE is a *large* publically owned electric utility that covers all or part of 14 counties, and has energy sources in-company of hydro, nuke, wind, solar, and geothermal. It's ancestor began in 1887, running 40 arc lights off of one steam driven dynamo, and the company (in 1983) serves 50,000 square miles, 800 cities or municipalities and over 900 million people. This 247 page book was privately published in 1983 for the Edison employees, and is, to the best of my knowledge, out of print. When I was handed one in August of 1985 I was told that I was very lucky to get one, and that mine was supposedly one of the last 50 available. With this situation where this information is otherwise unavailable, I offer an exerpt from pages 200-204. All typos are mine, occasional words or phrases in parentheses added to clarify terms and situations covered earlier in the book. A significant milestone in this growth was achieved on April 12, 1951 when Edison's one millionth meter was placed in service. Reaching this figure reuired 65 years, but it took only 13 more years to reach 2 million in 1964. The 3 millionth meter was connected 14 years after that in 1978. The first major event in Edison's postwar history was the conversion of it's system from 50 to 60 cycles. A cycle, or 'Hertz" as it is known today, is the length of time required for the generation of one complete positive and negative wave of alternating current, and is usually given as 'cycles per second'. The frequency of a power system has little effect on non-moving equipment such as radios, televisions, heaters or light bulbs, but does alter the performance of rotating equipment and electric motors. In the pioneering days of AC system frequency was casually regarded. So called "high frequency" generators, running at 133 cycles per second, were preferred for systems with loads exclusively for lighting. On the other hand, systems or private plants that powered motors usually relied on 25-cycle generators, which delivered good torque to the motors, but caused lights to flicker.The fact that power systems ran at different frequencies were not compatible made little difference until pioneer utility systems began to be consolidated. An international conference early determined that 50 cycles was an acceptable compromise between the power efficiency of low frequencies and trhe lack of flicker in high frequencies, and 50 cycles per second was established as the international standard for commercial alternating current utility systems. Virtually all the original AC plants built by Edison's predecessors were built to this 50-cycle standard. Unfortunately pressure from American electrical equipment manufacturers seeking protection from european competitors persuaded Congress to change teh US to a standard of 60-cycles, which unfortuantely resulted in the Edison Company being out of step with most of the rest of the nation. In fact the problem was originally of little importance, for manufacturers were willing to make motors to run on 50-cycle power,and frequency-changing devices, with some limitations, enabled power exchanges between systems of different frequencies. Thus Edison grew up as a 50-cycle system, surrounded by 60-cycle neighbors; Southern Sierras Power, San Diego Consolidated Gas and Electric, L.A. Gas and Electric, San Joaquin Light and Power, all used 60-cycle technology. In fact even the Edison system was not uniform. Santa Barbara, long isolated from Edison's main system was operated at 60 cycles until 1918, when it was connected to teh companys transmission lines, nessitating conversion to 50 cycles. Similarly the system of the Mount Whitney Power and Electric Company was built to operate at 60 cycles, and when it was merged into Edison in 1920, Company engineers decided to retain that frequency. Large frequency changers at Vestal and Rector Substations in the San Joaquin Valley were used to connect the Mount Whitney system to Edison's Big Creek (hydroelectric generating station) lines. Except for that portion of the city supplied by L.A. Gas and electric, Los Angeles had 50-cycle service. This was inherited by the Bureau of Power and Light wien the city bought Edison's distribution system (started in 1913, executed in 1922). In 1936, with the arrival of vast amounts of 60-cycle power from Hoover Dam imminent, the City (Los Angeles) converted, as did Pasadena, Burbank and Glendale). This left Edison as the last major 50-cycle utility in North America. Generating equipment and motors became costly and difficult to buy. Customers moving into the region colplained that household appliances did not work right. Local dealers had to stock two types of clocks, record players, washing machines, and refrigerators. AS early as 1934 Edison considered converting, but first because of the Deperssion and then beacuse of the War, deferred doing so. (During World War 2 Long Beach Steam Plant generator units #7 and #8, 35kw each, were removed and sent to Russia. Long Beach's was the only compatible available equipment available- compatible because it was 50-cycle). Early in 1945, however, with the war nearing a conclusion, top priority was given to plan the massive effort, nicknamed "The change-over". At exactly 10'oclock in the morning of April 16, 1946, Wayne johnson threw the switch at Laguna Bell Substation that cut in the new 60-cycle power. After this, and the other (later) switchovers, sharp-eared customers coule hear new sounds emanating from their electrical equipment: thumps, hums, and assorted vibrations as machines speeded up slightly. Nearly 2 million pieces of customer equipment were dealt with, from gigantic pumps and electric railway power equipment to tiny clock motors. Nearly all roatating devices ... had to rewired or rebuilt... and over 700,000 electric meters. The last cutover took place on October 26, 1948 at the LaFresa Substation when Edison Chairman of the Board Harry Bauer switched the remaining feeders to 60 cycles. The job had taken more than 3 years and cost over $34 million, but the mission of better service for Edison customers had been accomplished. ----- Mike Morris | All opinions must be my own since nobody PO Box 1130 | pays me enough to be their mouthpiece... Arcadia, CA. 91077 | ICBM: 34-07-55N, 118-03-42W | Reply to: morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us -- From smesh@cwemail.ceco.com Tue Aug 22 11:42:43 CDT 1995 Article: 112090 of alt.folklore.computers Xref: uchinews alt.folklore.computers:112090 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Path: uchinews!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!firewall!ceco!cwemail.ceco.com!smesh From: smesh@cwemail.ceco.com (Steven P. Healey) Subject: Re: Why 50 vs 60 Hz ? (Boston) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 130.197.238.3 Message-ID: Lines: 18 Sender: root@ceco.ceco.com (Operator) Organization: CECo X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] References: <40h3v0$55j@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <40l3ui$ok8@barnacle.iol.ie> <1995Aug20.053902.18101@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:00:22 GMT Status: R >As a sidelight, if memory serves me correctly, E.E. "Doc" Smith, in >one of his sicence fiction stories in the late 1950s/early 1960s >(the "Venus Equilateral" series?), used 25 cycle power in Boston >as a problem generator, where the lower frequency causes >malfunctioning of a matter transmitter system. This story was my first >exposure that 60hz power wasn't the standard everywhere... >Mike Morris Operating from memory here, but I think it was about a year ago that I saw an article in "Electrical World" that Boston Edison had served notice to its last remaining 25 cycle customers that it had received permission from the PUC to terminate that service and that they would either have to convert to 60 Hz or install their own frequency converters. These customers were primarily very old downtown office buildings that used 25 cycle motors for furnaces, elevators, etc. Steven P. Healey reply here --> sphealey@acm.org From uchinews!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!sunic!ericom!exucom.exu.ericsson.se!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!sixgun.East.Sun.COM!seven-up.East.Sun.COM!vergil!gsteckel Tue Feb 23 18:26:16 CST 1993 Article: 34764 of alt.folklore.computers Xref: uchinews alt.folklore.computers:34764 sci.electronics:36966 Path: uchinews!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!sunic!ericom!exucom.exu.ericsson.se!texsun!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!sixgun.East.Sun.COM!seven-up.East.Sun.COM!vergil!gsteckel From: gsteckel@vergil.East.Sun.COM (Geoff Steckel - Sun BOS Hardware CONTRACTOR) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,sci.electronics Subject: Re: gas-powered laptops (was Re: Old Iron at home stories wanted) Message-ID: <1mdp27$2e4@seven-up.East.Sun.COM> Date: 23 Feb 93 18:05:59 GMT References: <18FEB199311373685@rover.uchicago.edu> <1m0r8kINNjun@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> <22FEB199316514640@reg.triumf.ca> Organization: Omnivore Technology, Newton, MA (617) 332-9252 Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: vergil.east.sun.com Status: R In article <22FEB199316514640@reg.triumf.ca> advax@reg.triumf.ca (A.Daviel) writes: >Way, way, waaay back, a company in Britain put out a gas-powered radio. It >had lots of copper-nickel (or something) junctions in series. Stick half of >them in a gas flame, cool the others, and maybe you get enough volts to run a >valve (tube) radio...... No moving parts, even. ;)= Hmmm.... In Karachi, Pakistan, in 1960+-, in the USSR Technological Export store, I saw (and heard) a kerosene powered transistor radio. No joke! It had a kerosene lamp with a monster set of fins wrapped around the chimney. The fins contained the thermoelectric junctions to power the radio. I wanted to get it, but Americans weren't allowed to buy Soviet products then. A CMOS laptop with unlit LCD display would probably work. I doubt that you could get enough power to light a filament, though. -- geoff steckel (gwes@trilobyte.com, gwes@wjh12.harvard.EDU) Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Sun Microsystems, despite the From: line. This posting is entirely the author's responsibility.